Topic on User talk:The H-Man

From Wikizilla, the kaiju encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search

Screenshot request

13
Les (talkcontribs)

Hello. Firstly, thank you again for all of the hard work you've been putting in to upgrading our gallery screenshots. It's something that's been long overdue and we greatly appreciate your efforts.

I noticed you were working on Ebirah, and I figured I'd ask if you'd be so kind as to take a screenshot of the single MosuGoji scene from that movie, as I don't have a Blu-ray rip on hand. It happens at around the 56:08 mark, when Ebirah drags Godzilla under the water. You can tell by the dorsal plate pattern and triangular fingers that it's not the Daisenso. Thanks a bunch!

The H-Man (talkcontribs)
Les (talkcontribs)

Thank you very much! That'll do nicely

The H-Man (talkcontribs)

Thanks, too, for the heads-up. It looks like there are a few more shots of MosuGoji (in its hybridized Jiras form?) in Ebirah.

This seems to be another shot of it, when Godzilla is again dragged underwater in the final battle; unfortunately we don't get a look at the dorsal fins, but the long, slender fingers (seen better in this behind the scenes pic) are consistent with MosuGoji's. The film's two shots of Godzilla being pulled under were probably photographed together.

And there's this unflattering shot of Godzilla, also from the final battle (preceding the shot I just linked above). While the head doesn't belong to the original MosuGoji, the one visible dorsal fin definitely does, although that's not apparent in this behind the scenes shot.

Les (talkcontribs)

This seems to be another shot of it, when Godzilla is again dragged underwater in the final battle; unfortunately we don't get a look at the dorsal fins, but the long, slender fingers (seen better in this behind the scenes pic) are consistent with MosuGoji's.

I definitely agree the screenshot is of MosuGoji, given the shape of the finger claws, though it seems like a more Daisenso-esque head was attached. As for the production shot, it's hard to tell, but the fingers almost look a little different. Then again, the feet resemble MosuGoji's.

While the head doesn't belong to the original MosuGoji, the one visible dorsal fin definitely does

Yep, that's a dead ringer for a MosuGoji plate. According to The Pictorial Book of Godzilla, these three images also depict the MosuGoji. The caption on the last one claims the spot on top of his head is from where Gomess' horn was removed. I can't see the plates well enough to confirm or deny, but there you go.

Les (talkcontribs)

Addendum: upon further inspection, this head really does resemble Jirahs. I have to wonder about the timeline of these suits being modified and filmed.

The H-Man (talkcontribs)

I've wondered about that, too. I'm kinda pressed for time this afternoon but fortunately I have some pics from a recent Facebook discussion about this that I can dump here to augment this summary.

I'm very skeptical about the whole "NankaiGoji" / "a new head was built for part of Ebirah". To me, it just looks like the same Monster Zero costume in various stages of wear, tear, and repair. My hypothesis is that the Ultraman episode (broadcast September 18) would have been completed before Ebirah started filming (Cyberkids had a draft dated August 24), and that the Daisenso head was stitched back onto its original body in time to shoot Ebirah. (I'm not sure yet what to make of these screenshots and bts pictures of MosuGoji or, possibly, the hybridized "Jiras" costume in Ebirah.)

In brief, my idea is that they didn't build a new head, they just gave Godzilla a "face lift" towards the end of production on Ebirah. I think this was necessary because the materials in the face visibly sagged and shifted to the point that the eyes were almost entirely obscured when photographed at some angles. All they apparently did was pull the brows up and back to re-expose the eyes.

I really should have expanded this to include other screenshots from early in the production of Ebirah, but I have to make do with what I've got online. Nevertheless, I think it illustrates my point well enough. I also have this left profile comparison. IMO, the "NankaiGoji's" face shows too many similarities to the original DaisensoGoji's look for it to be a brand new head. For example, compare the definition in the "musculature" of Godzilla's left cheek. And the way the right cheek hangs over the mouth is consistent even back to its original appearance in Monster Zero. The lower lip appears unchanged, too.

Only circumstantial evidence, of course, but I think it's more likely than not.

Les (talkcontribs)

Yeah, I don't have reason to believe it's a new head either. I doubt there is any evidence to back that claim up on our page, and I assume it's just a relic from years past when things were checked less. A lot of the suit information needs evaluation, I think.


On the topic of the timeline, I just discovered The Pictorial Book that I mentioned actually gives some dates in regards to shooting.

  • The MosuGoji was created for Mothra vs. Godzilla around January of 1964. Filming on Ghidorah lasted from August to September of that year. The suit was kept on the rooftop of a department store as an attraction thereafter.
  • The MosuGoji was eventually loaned to Tsuburaya who converted it into Gomess and filmed him between February and March of '65.
  • The DaisensoGoji was created and filmed for Invasion of Astro-Monster from September to October of 1965.
  • In May of 1966, the MosuGoji (which had since been deconverted from Gomess) had its head cut off and replaced by the DaisensoGoji's for display at the Ueno Akafudado department store. That's where these images are from.
  • The hybridized Godzilla suit was then sent off to Tsuburaya, who converted it into Jirahs and filmed him in August of '66.
  • Toho then got it back and reattached its head to the DaisensoGoji's body for Ebirah, which filmed from September to October of '66.

So there you go. The timeline on Daisenso is indeed IoAM Ultraman EHotD. That would leave us with an in-tact Daisenso and a headless Mosu by the time Ebirah was filming. So did they film the Mosu first with the Daisenso's head still attached, then reattached it to the Daisenso body? Did they dig up the original Mosu head and reattach it to its body (the passage I brought up in my last post mentions something about Gomess' horn being removed, after all)? Or did the Mosu get an entirely new head for those water scenes? Those are the questions I unfortunately don't have answers to (at least for the moment).

The H-Man (talkcontribs)

It's good to have that timeline confirmed, thanks for looking into that!

Based on the behind the scenes pictures and scant screenshots from the film, it looks like they shot some of the water tank footage with the hybrid costume. This would appear to be the Daisenso head -- it has the same basic facial proportions as in this Ebirah screenshot.

It's much harder to tell which head is pictured here, but IMO, its proportions are more like that of the broad-faced Daisenso than Mosu.(Somewhat similar angle from Ghidrah.) I wonder if the spot on its head actually has anything to do with the white spot in this production photo of Jiras.

Incidentally, August Ragone has another, low-quality picture of the Mosu/Daisenso hybrid here, valuable because it shows the pre-Jiras form of the costume(s) from the opposite side (this just looks like it's been flipped).

But the head seen here and here continues to confuse me. Neither its eyes nor nose match either Mosu or DaisensoGoji (in either 1965 or 1966). However, as you mentioned before, it's very similar to Jiras, which we know to be a redress of the classic DaisensoGoji head. I don't have an HD version of the Ultraman episode, otherwise I'd already be hunting for screenshots showing Jiras' right profile.

Les (talkcontribs)

Yeah, it‘s very possible the book is simply wrong about the spot on his head having anything to do with Gomess. The spot on Jirahs’ head is a good catch.

My working theory is that the deconverted Jirahs was filmed first, before they reconstructed the DaisensoGoji. The head would’ve likely been repaired/remodeled which is why it does not resemble the ‘66 suit - the attraction version seen in the Ragone image is pretty close to this one, methinks. Jirahs and this water Godzilla also have very similar orange eyes (see here).

The H-Man (talkcontribs)

I don't like to speculate too much, especially without much evidence, but I'm starting to wonder if there was a second "stunt" head attached to the Jirass costume for water stunt scenes. Here are four screenshots -- forgive the abysmal quality of the BCI DVDs (the only copy I own) -- the way the lower jaw is hinged looks different than it does on the real DaisensoGoji. Perhaps it's just the angle the suit was shot at here, but it sure looks different to me. For comparison, here's another lousy screenshot of Jiras, this time with the authentic DaisensoGoji head attached, from approx. the same angle.

Admittedly, Ultraman & co. aren't exactly my forte. Maybe some Ultra Series reference works clarify this?

Anyway, if that's a different head, it could explain the strange face of the water tank MosuGoji in Ebirah. Maybe TPC shot the water scenes last, and the costume was returned with the alternate head still attached. On the other hand, this still looks like the real DaisensoGoji to me, so maybe this shot was erroneously lumped in with the shots of the Mosu/"Jiras" Goji?

More food for thought, anyway.

Les (talkcontribs)

Was flipping through a scan of Godzilla 1954-1999 Super Complete Works and found two more production photos from the underwater Ebirah shots: here and here. The first one is essentially a fuller view of this shot from the movie and gives a good look at both the head and the spines. Definitely a MosuGoji spine, but with a Daisenso-esque head.

The H-Man (talkcontribs)

Good finds! Too bad the text doesn't provide more details about the suit itself. I agree, that's certainly the Mosu body but I think the head is still frustratingly obscure. I think we're probably looking at this ugly thing, but I can't be sure from the new picture (or the screenshot). MosuGoji had a long neck but the one on the suit in those pictures looks freakishly long... it doesn't seem like that's the original neck/head assembly.