Topic on User talk:Les

Hey Les, I know before I’ve had terrible resources about the Gohten being a Gotengo incarnation but I’ve got new information I think you’d like to check out. https://imgur.com/a/U7mSxhB https://imgur.com/a/4dzbEcJ Also the Godzilla Wars "Super Gotengo" card but I'm not sure how valid that is.

I'll be honest in saying I'm still not convinced.

The first image describes the Gohten as a "space-age Gotengo" which... is pretty apt. Still doesn't make them the same.

Second image says that it was "planned" for the Gotengo to re-appear and to make a space opera comparable to Star Wars. I would not be surprised if Tomoyuki Tanaka's intention was for the movie to literally have the Gotengo. Hell, he wrote it under the pen name Hachiro Jinguji. But I don't think this passage is indicative enough of the final product to be conclusive.

I don't see any reference to the Gohten in the third picture. It just describes The War in Space as "Atragon: Space Edition."

The picture in the second link I'm assuming was advertising some kind of TV special? It is indeed called the "Gotengo Edition," but among the films listed are Negadon: The Monster from Mars which has a robot called MI-6 who has a drill arm that references the Gotengo. I don't think you would argue that that's an appearance of the Gotengo, so that sort of pokes a hole in that.

The Third image is surrounded by images of the Gohten, I'll upload a better picture. https://imgur.com/a/4uNUpXV

For the second image, I thought it called it the "Undersea Warship," forgive me I am new to the language.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it say in the third image "Undersea Warship Gotengo" flies twice"?

As for the 5/5 the Negadon is a fan film and they say it's based off the Gotengo if I'm not wrong? They released the three figures below along side it but I don't have much to back myself up on that. However, the whole thing even outright says the Gohten (also Ra) are incarnations of the Gotengo. It says something along the lines of "Different names and designs throughout the years"? correct me if I'm wrong.

I also discovered this in the book where it lists super weapons: https://imgur.com/a/vZkrkaZ

I know you have already probably made up your mind on this whole thing but I also wanted to put this on the table as well. I apologize if this is becoming annoying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2gvmudXl_w as well as this: https://imgur.com/a/sZ0tBVF

If I had to guess, judging by the unique spelling of Gotengo as 轟天號 (it's usually 轟天号), all of these excerpts are from the same book. I'm sure Gotengo and Gohten are commonly seen as being versions of one another, but for our purposes, they are different enough to be called distinct. The Gohten and Ra are clearly based on the Gotengo, but they are different incarnations with different official names (despite what the occasional source might print).

Today I got some one to translate the theater guide from Final Wars where it has a description on the Gotengo and it just says the ship was called "Goten" in WiS. I would of mentioned this earlier but I honestly discovered this a few hours ago. Also I didn't get your thoughts on the video and WiS encyclopedia "comparison" I sent you, I would like your thoughts on it if you have the time. Final Wars Theater Guide: https://imgur.com/a/U6GCda5

Thank you for your thoughts on the book.

Also I'm confused on the "Incarnation" part, that has sorta been my goal to prove, That the Gohten and Ra are incarnations of the Gotengo.

They are reimaginings of the Gotengo, so I don't think it's unfair to say they are ostensibly incarnations. If that's all you were looking for in this conversation then... that's frankly a bit petty and doesn't help us lol. I'm saying that regardless of their relation, they are distinct enough to be covered separately here.

I don't disagree that they shouldn't be covered separately. I was referring to them only being related by inspiration. I think they are incarnations and that the Gohten is the 1977 Gotengo. The Ra I don't have much to back myself up on but I'm not willing to die on a hill about the Ra. The Gohten however, I am positive is a version of the Gotengo. I don't think the relation is just "it is based on the Gotengo." If this whole thing was it is based on the 1963 Gotengo specifically and not the overall "character" then I think this whole thing was a misunderstanding.

If I recall, this entire discussion was started because I reverted your edits putting the Gohten's information on the Gotengo page, and you said they and Ra should be under the same page. If you're saying now that you actually have no objection to the way they're being covered, then I can't say I understand why we're still talking about this. If you must know, personally no, I would not call the Gohten "the 1977 Gotengo." But why does that matter?

I was never against my edits being changed even after I thought that was silly of me to do in the first place. I just continued on with that because I did and still think they are the same "character," so I went on about them being on the same page as saying "they are incarnations of the same warship."

I just checked the theater program and wrote down the excerpt, this is it:

77年の「惑星大戦争」では、宇宙人の侵略に備えて開発された宇宙防衛艦に轟天の名が冠せられ、金星で大魔艦と戦った。

Personally, I'd translate it "In 1977's The War in Space, a space defense ship developed in preparation for alien invasions bore the name 'Gohten,' and fought the Daimakan on Venus." It doesn't say anything to the effect of the Gotengo being renamed Gohten; it says a different ship was named Gohten. That seems perfectly reasonable to put under a section on the Gotengo, considering the Gohten was undeniably named after it. I still don't see how that's an argument for them being the same craft.

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with you at all on this one. It is under the Gotengo's section and it just doesn't make sense to put a different craft there. Lets say they are inspired off each other, why wouldn't they say the Gotengo inspired the ship? The argument could be made that the Gotengo's name is technically "轟天" without the suffix which isn't really that important when referring to the ship. If you made that conclusion I could see where you are coming from but I still wouldn't agree.

The last part is essentially what I'm saying, yes. They are both named "Goten," so in a section covering the history of the Gotengo, it seems reasonable to mention 'by the way, this other movie has a craft called Goten too.' It's not like it's calling it the Gotengo, or that it was simply a renaming of the same craft. Ryuhei Kitamura was a fan of The War in Space anyway and the Gohten influenced the New Gotengo's design, so it being mentioned in this pamphlet is sensible.

Okay, I can completely understand and respect your view on it that way. I could make the argument about their names being the same but that would really go no where. Also, are we aware of their copyright? are they copyrighted separately? I've looked on Japanese trademark websites and have only been able to find the Gotengo "轟天号." This isn't really super relevant but just wanted to know if you have any insight on that.

I actually have a spreadsheet of all the English and Japanese trademarks of Toho's properties I could find, and no, Gohten doesn't seem to be trademarked. I don't think that's saying much though, considering the Black Shark from Latitude Zero is trademarked, but the Alpha from the same movie isn't. Also "LittleGodzilla" is trademarked, but BabyGodzilla and Godzilla Junior aren't. It seems kind of arbitrary what characters they file trademarks for.

Interesting, I just can't find anything when it comes to the Gohten's copyright.

The Daimakan has a trademark, if that's interesting to you. Nothing on the other craft though, I don't think.

I'm not gonna make the conclusion that it is under the Gotengo's trademark but do you know any where I could look? (I know this might be useless asking due to you not even knowing the deal regarding it's trademark)

I don't really know what you're expecting to find. There is simply no trademark on the word 轟天. In terms of how Toho considers it, I'm not sure.

I have a sales brochure from Toho's international branch which advertises Atragon and The War in Space among others, and "Atoragon" is the only thing mentioned in the trademark information. Evidently they had no plans to file "Gotengo" or "Gohten" as trademarks in the United States.

I'm trying to find out if the Gohten is under the Gotengo's trademark. Not saying I'll find anything but if the "Daimakan" has a trademark and if the Gohten is it's own warship I wouldn't see why it wouldn't have one either. I'm not gonna make that conclusion without proof of course, it is a big assumption to make.

Like I said, the way they decide what to file seems totally random. It's also possible 轟天 is simply too nonspecific to trademark, so they only filed 轟天号 (the suffix would serve to distinguish it as a specific ship). Things like Mecha-King Ghidorah and Keizer Ghidorah aren't even trademarked.

Well, Keizer Ghidorah is trademarked as "Monster XII" not the name itself. Mecha-King Ghidorah is really just the Heisei King Ghidorah so I don't see the point in separating them. Though, Toho has separated character trademarks for lesser reasons.

I'm talking about Japanese trademarks, but "Monster X II" isn't filed in America either. Those trademark icons don't mean Toho has filed the trademarks, the ™ symbol means an unregistered de facto trademark, as opposed to ®. MKG literally has his own trademark icon, so I dunno what you're talking about there.

Sorry, it was just confusing on what you were telling me. I don't really go out of my way to see the history of Keizer Ghidorah and MKG's trademarks.

My point being that Toho went out of their way to impose separate trademarks on "King Ghidorah" and "Mecha-King Ghidorah," but only one was formally filed. Just like BabyGodzilla, LittleGodzilla, and Godzilla Junior all have separate icons, but "LittleGodzilla" is the only one with a registered trademark in Japan (none of them are filed in America). So Daimakan being trademarked but not Gohten isn't saying much when Toho's procedure on these things makes no sense lol

Would it be fair to mention in trivia or the name section that they are "strangely" once in a while referred to as the same warship?

Ah, alright.

Also I would still like your thoughts on the Video and comparison page I sent.

Also, one other thing that slipped my mind I also want to ask about: The Super XIII "Gotengo" concept art. https://imgur.com/a/Yvrx7qN Now, I know this is just a proposal so I'm not entirely sure how this relates to the Gohten and Gotengo relation but it just seems awfully odd to casually call the two the same. Even in the proposal: https://www.tohokingdom.com/blog/okas-passion-godzilla-vs-barubaroi-proposal-translation/ There is nothing about combining the two characters and it simply acts if they are one in the same. Now I know there is concept art for things like the Gotengo being a form of Moguera and I'm not trying to say something as if that means the Gotengo and Moguera are same character. I think here it is obvious that the proposal is for the resurrection of the Gotengo, it even outright says it. Just wanna know your view on this.