Got an answer. Direct and final, the male and female Jinshin-Mushi are the drone (adult male) and nymph (juvenile female) of the Jinshin-Mushi species, Prime is the full adult female.
https://mobile.twitter.com/arvidthetwit/status/1635748363156037632
Hopefully this works this time…
So the entire species called “MUTO” are officially one species called Titanus Jinshin-Mushi. MUTO isn’t a name it’s an acronym for Massive Unidentified Terrestrial Organisms, and now they are identified as Jinshin-Mushi.
https://mobile.twitter.com/arvidthetwit/status/1385922084304527364
Skullcrawlers/Skulldevils and any other creatures with a scientific name are not Titans, they are at least by Greg Keyes called Sub-Titans.
Conflicting info is too be presented on the site
Both pieces of information should be presented and addressed on the page if you ask me it was still very much used in the film even if the intro stole some fanmade stuff .
Clover for example addresses both origins from what Abrams and the ARG (a deep sea monster that was there for thousands of years) suggest vs the recent Matt Reeves interview who suggested its a space alien who recently arrived.
The Titanus and M.U.T.O. designations are not based in any real taxonomy, as I'm pretty sure you've argued in the past. I think the Monarch profiles generally just call these their "classifications" as opposed to species. I could buy that Monarch would give MUTO Prime a different fancy nickname than its children, the same with the Skull Devil and Skullcrawlers (Skull Devil being a Titan also seems reasonable). As far as I know, Titanus Jinshin-Mushi has never been used to refer to any MUTO except the Prime. "Titanus MUTO" and "Titanus Cranium Reptant" are used in Godzilla vs. Kong and nothing inherently contradicts them, so I don't see a problem.
Also, don't edit war with people. If it happens again, you will be banned temporarily.
he linked this though
Arvid Nelson wrote aftershock and according to him they are supposed to be the same as jinshin mushi we featured information about Amhuluk that only the writer mentioned and wasnt mentioned in the comic itself before so why cant we mention this?
we shouldn't disregard what the writer of the comic has said also
Nothing in You're post address what Arvid Nelson said.
Arvid Nelson wasn't even mentioned in it.
My argument was that their species is meaningless if "Titanus [x]" is a non-taxonomical classification.
But the writer still considers the Mutos to be Jinshin Mushi though shouldn't this be mentioned at all when we have a bunch of Extra info on Amhuluk that came from from Drew Johnson so why isnt this allowed in any way?
I've yet to see proof that he actually considers them "Jinshin-Mushi." He was responding to a loaded question; the most he actually said is that they're the same species. And even if he does believe they are Jinshin-Mushi, he says himself he was a "hired gun." Legendary's continuity team may believe otherwise.
wait so what should i do about the conflicting information about Clovers Origins
i used that as an example earlier.
The GvK information boxes were directly stolen from fanmade sources. They are not considered official, as confirmed by Wingard on Reddit.
MUTO is not a taxonomic term, it’s a code for unidentified superspecies. Titanus is also not a taxonomic term it’s a distinguishing title, with no baring on the scientific name.
the 2014 pair has been referred to as Jinshin by multiple people who work with legendary, Arvid included. Also Prime and her children are all Jinshin-Mushi, that’s the species name. Titanus is not part of the scientific name. Nobody I’ve spoken to considers the Skulldevil a Titan.
Wingard did not say anything so specific, unless there's another reply I should be looking at. I don't think we can automatically toss out everything in the opening credits because some things in them are contradicted by other official sources. I also think it's sort of disingenuous to have asked Nelson that question without clarifying why you were asking it. As far as I'm aware, the regular MUTOs are never called Jinshin-Mushi in Godzilla Aftershock. Who are these other people who have done so?
its still an answer even if he didn't clarify why he was asking
we never clarified to other writers we wanted information to add on the wiki when we asked before.
I did say why I was asking Arvid it’s literally right there, “ Also Titanus Jinshin-Mushi is the species of both Prime and the MUTO from 2014 right?” like that’s a direct question. Drew Edward Johnson if I recall? I don’t have those anymore cause with Drew it was in a DM on Twitter and he deleted his Twitter. Arvid had talked to me about it a lot actually.
also Legendary in its profile of Prime… she is their mother, that makes them the same species. It’s spelled out pretty clearly given they are her offspring and a caterpillar isn’t a different species than the butterfly or moth it becomes, Mothra’s two forms are not separately given different species names.https://mobile.twitter.com/Legendary/status/1248402077933395968
trying to find the reply but Wingard mentioned it was a rush job in an AMA.
but also talked to folks like KDM and HighFlyers about the opening and it’s an absolute mess as everything contradicts it… like the information box for Godzilla is from a fan magazine on Heisei Godzilla. Ghidorah and Kong both have botched measurements. Basically all the art is stolen fan art with maybe two exceptions.
the only thing that is of possible canon is the brackets.
HighFlyers is a secondary source and last time i checked the wiki doesn't use second handed sources unless they are directly presenting us from a firsthand source with some evidence rather than just taking his word.
(example monstrosities videos on shin ultraman and singular point)
He has sans of ann official book from Legendary. It has the official stats. It came with a Shin Godzilla figure for some reason. He actually has a lot of official information from legit sources
for example though Ghidorah has a 1500ft wingspan not an 800ft one.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CiT8lXvMs7B/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
actually last time i checked the admins tried to remove stuff from that book because supposedly some stats looked awfully similar to stats from Toho Kingdoms Kaiju war chronicles
also funny enough that Muto Prime model is actually stolen fan art too!
Yeah ik the Prime model is stolen, HighFlyers and I were peeved and had a discussion on that.
the stats are signed off on by Legendary, it’s an official release.
ok but where did this book come from again i thought it came with some statue or something i cannot remember
but much like this situation right now i still think it needs to be at least mentioned in some form too even if it supposedly stole stats its still apart of an official product.
It came with the EZHobi Shin fig.
if you got insta check the post if not.
”A recent bonus guidebook has released with a new shin goji figure from EZhobi. I have been trying to contact more deeply into the company or even legendary themselves about it but only got left on read. Thankfully on representative did get back to me and gave me the info he could about the books production.”
on Ghidorah, Rodan has an 800ft wingspan… Ghidorah’s wingspan is about two of Rodan’s wingspans… so there is no physical way they have the same wingspan. I mean a single wing of Ghidorah is probably 800ft?
i recall this book info originally was trying to be added here but it got undone by some staff under the premise that it stole stats from Toho Kingdoms Kaiju War Chronicles stat section
and from what i remember it came with a different statue
@Les hey why was these stats from this book that came with an offical piece of merch removed from King Ghidorah again?
Also I made it absolutely clear that I was asking for clarification because I was doing a fact sheet… which is true. This tweet is from a while back.
I did the same thing with Drew on Amhuluk and asked him if I could share the stuff from some DMs.
i have a lot of information, most of it I am waiting for a go ahead on sharing because I am like that.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Driscoll23Jack/status/1385891461296754691
Les seems to have the more compelling thread developing, so I'll be brief. To clarify: I think you should have clarified that the GvK opening credits called the regular MUTOs "Titanus MUTO" when asking Nelson that question. Presumably he wasn't aware of that already.
He was actually aware of that. I had talked to him on Instagram about it as well in a DM and all. It’s also not the first time I asked him that…
much like how I asked Drew before asking anything publicly on Twitter.
Did y’all check what i replied to him at all before assuming the worst? Cause you should
https://mobile.twitter.com/Driscoll23Jack/status/1385936868009721862
https://mobile.twitter.com/arvidthetwit/status/1549902464589217793
My problem with the Nelson tweet is that you're arguing something he didn't say. He was asked whether "Titanus Jinshin-Mushi" applies to all MUTOs, but all he actually answered is "[they're the] same species." That is not confirmation that the 2014 MUTOs are Jinshin-Mushi.
What I've been trying to get across is that it shouldn't matter whether they're the same species or not because "Titanus..." has nothing to do with species. The way Aftershock uses Jinshin-Mushi seems to be for that one individual. Even this tweet you linked uses very singular wording. If it was really as easy as 'Jinshin-Mushi = all MUTOs' why would the Watchalong data sheet for the MUTOs still say that their designation is "MUTO"?
So yeah, maybe don’t assume the worst about someone?
https://mobile.twitter.com/arvidthetwit/status/1634654742352633856
I’ll be honest that I don’t even know how to respond to this. You asked him the wrong question, with even less context, and he didn’t even answer it. This is the third time I’ll say that them being the same species is irrelevant. The claim was that Monarch applies “Titanus Jinshin-Mushi” to the 2014 MUTOs, and that still hasn’t been substantiated.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Driscoll23Jack/status/1634668430572879873?cxt=HHwWgoC8nduRwa8tAAAA
well he tried again but i dont think he understood we wanted a very specific wording about it.
@LindenHS I really do hate to ask but do you think you could specifically ask Are the Mutos themselves identified as Jinshin Mushi?
like with that exact wording because i dont think your tweet that you recently made is what the admins was seeking they really need very specific wording i think.
I’m just being clear to the point. I know what the answer is… just not sure how a child isn’t the same species as it’s mother in any situation.
i know but the admins really want that specific wording of a question so lets not argue and maybe delete that tweet and ask again with very specific wording like I'm suggesting.
" Are the Mutos themselves classified in-universe as Jinshin Mushi?"
is what they are trying to want you to specifically ask i think.
It’s been answered, in the old tweet he confirmed it. Also confirmed I wasn’t misleading him…
the term had always applied. It’s substantiated.
He did not "confirm it." He said vaguely that they are the same species, but not what that species is. This is exactly what I said just a few messages higher. The 2014 MUTOs have continued to be designated "MUTO" while the MUTO Prime is singularly referred to as Titanus Jinshin-Mushi.
yeah but i think the logic that they are going by is if Prime reproduced and created the Mutos that would mean they are supposed to be the same species despite designation
i think thats what they are trying to say.
But he is far too focused on species, when I am talking about designation. This whole thread was as a response to him changing "Titanus MUTO" to "Titanus Jinshin-Mushi." I don't care whether they're the same species as MUTO Prime, that much has already been implied by Aftershock itself. The point is that Legendary have never once referred to the 2014 MUTOs retroactively as Jinshin-Mushi. I've yet to see evidence that the Titanus names must conform to taxonomy.
i get that too
im just trying to figure out a middle ground that could be agreed upon because i think both sides here have a point.
You are correct, and literally if they are the same species they are the same species.. not sure what the disconnect here is?
MUTO has never been a species name ever…
i think the issue is they are going with what the movie opening designates (despite a lot of the intro taking info from elsewhere its still apart of the film itself and needs to be mentioned in some form is what the wikizilla staff is saying i think)
them as and we are assuming the designations are not literally taxonomic and more akin to SCP for example if we was to take it literally then that would mean every titan is Taxonomically related to each other when its clearly not the case.
but i do agree that we need to dig more into what the writer of aftershock says.
The disconnect is that "Titanus Jinshin-Mushi" is not a species. That is the name of an individual creature. It doesn't matter that the MUTOs are MUTO Prime's children, they do not carry the Jinshin-Mushi name just because their mother does. Nothing has yet been presented to the contrary.
The last part is the specific species name, think of Titanus as [REDACTED]. It’s there to hide the genus from the audience so we don’t immediately figure out what they are.
so for example: Titanus Fenir is actually Canis Fenir.
but he needs to really give us everything he knows or is allowed to post if possible
I share what I can, I try to ask if I can publicly share some things like the Amhuluk stuff… that was all started in direct messages before I asked if I could post about it or ask publicly. Same with the Keyes stuff on Godzilla’s actual age.
i think some of the Amhuluk stuff is already on the page though
and the godzilla age thing might be on the page too but unsourced because i think your account for some reason wouldnt show up anymore
Correct… some things I can’t share and I get that that’s a “my friends uncle works at Nintendo” level crap… but I’m not about to leak actual information or anything. Especially because there is always a chance of getting someone in trouble.
the Titanus but isn’t critical information but you can ask anyone who works with Legendary about it.
if you want to ask someone more reliable, KDM is a good friend of mine ask him.
well could you pls provide everything that's public in regards to information that might be missing on certain things?
he mentioned KDM was one source and everything that guy has posted on his twitter is pretty much spot on or true
but Linden please give us names of specific staff i think thats what Les is wanting.
ok but who exactly was it that said that about the Titanus designations?
is this public information? can you directly post it?
and even if this is a DM that doesnt reveal or spoil a future project you could post screencaps.
KDM is a journalist, he's not a MonsterVerse staff member. His opinion/understanding is not important to this. Linden is making a claim about how Legendary supposedly treat the Titanus designations, but hasn't provided any direct statement from a staff member or piece of media. I haven't been given a reason to believe it.
Also if KDM isn’t a source then neither is sny third party like Johnson, Keyes, Arvid, Zid, or the stuff from other sources involved as they are technically third parties… this exact argument was used last time remember?
if I’m sharing something I have absolutely made sure it’s official…
People who directly write and Work for the MonsterVerse are a source though that's first party
@Les There's Several Bits of Amhuluk information on his page that come from writers for the comics but never really seen or mentioned in the comic itself should that info still be included?
so can i not update the KOTM page to mention quetz was in a carving he mentioned dougherty confirmed it?
also i feel there's a serious level of miscommunication going on honestly
KDM is literally the best source given he knows even more people than I do.. also not just a journalist…
and i have you are just ignoring it and asking for overly specific information that is redundant.
and you can’t always get what you want because sometimes that information isn’t available to share.
im just preventing misinformation. That’s what I do.
also was I wrong about the Rock Critters and Dougs?
also trying to find one thing that if I recall partially confirms some of this… I just can’t remember where it was posted.
This is clearly going nowhere and I'm not interested in doing this all day. You asserted something that you haven't adequately proven and are complaining that looking for proof is "redundant." Vaguely gesturing to the names of people and nonspecific Twitter replies is not good enough, I'm sorry. The only things that are going on these pages are what have been directly said by creators or in the movies/books.
Then why are some twitter replies okay?
pick and choose doesn’t work… and they aren’t vague that’s just how you are interpreting them.
yeah sorry im a bit confused myself now
Amhuluk has information that are from twitter replies yet no one had an issue with that.
The writer or illustrator of a comic personally expounding upon aspects of a character they created is worlds different from you posing a question that gets a nonspecific reply and then taking that as confirmation of your preconceived ideas. Nelson has never said that the entirety of the MUTO species is called "Titanus Jinshin-Mushi", he just stated the fact that they are one species. I cannot bear to explain this again.
Why would he need to?
Titanus MUTO has never been a thing not even once, unless you think Titanus Massive Unidentified Terrestrial Organism is a name…?
and I asked if they were the same species as PRIME, that can’t be more specific as to what his answer means.., she isn’t a Titanus MUTO, she is a Titanus Jinshin-Mushi… you are misinterpreting a very clear statement.
i really don't want to assume the worst here or mean to be rude but i just cant help to feel there's some personal dislike between both parties here.
How do either of you suggest this can be resolved?
Yes, I do think "Titanus MUTO" is a name, because MUTO has become a name. The MUTO Superspecies Profile literally says that is their "Monarch designation," which is the exact same terminology used for the Titanus names. Logically if they have a designation, then they're not "unidentified," but that hasn't stopped Legendary. What we personally think about these things doesn't change how true or false they are in the canon.
Regarding MUTO Prime, at this point I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me. This entire time I've argued that "Titanus Jinshin-Mushi" is not a species. If it isn't a species, then the other MUTOs being related to her is entirely meaningless. The question is not whether they're the same species, it's whether that specific designation of "Titanus Jinshin-Mushi" should apply to the 2014 MUTOs, which it has literally never been used to. You can claim that "the back half of the Titanus designations is part of a taxonomic name" but I've already asked you for a source on that and you can't provide it. If you have nothing further to present, then I'm done responding to this.
he didn't say titanus was apart of the taxonomic name he said it was a codename like what you are saying right now though.
to quote what he said
"The last part is the specific species name, think of Titanus as [REDACTED]. It’s there to hide the genus from the audience so we don’t immediately figure out what they are.
so for example: Titanus Fenir is actually Canis Fenir."
As I said they seem to ignore some of what I say in favor of picking up on the things to try twisting it a bit.
honestly though thanks Zillamsn for trying to be reasonable and listening. I’m kinda reaching my tap out point cause this is kinda ridiculous…
i really don't want to assume either of you guys have a bias against one another but i will say personal biases are not good for a wiki from either side.
personal problems got no place here.
please don't take this as a personal attack or assume the worst intention guys i really tried to listen to both points here and tried to help reach a compromise i really did
im pretty sure im done here.
Eh? 🤷♂️
I just think they are intentionally trying to misinterpret the tweet… and are pick and choosing… I mean it’s frustrating yes, incredibly so.
honestly Les probably just dislikes me, everyone does, it’s just how it is.
I said the back half of the designation. The part that isn't "Titanus." Linden claimed that is the species name, with no proof.
when you said backhalf i thought you meant titanus because that's before the name of the creature
i think what they are trying to say is they cant provide it if its not directly spoken from staff or any piece of media from the direct source that can be found outside of just KDM plus
and we cannot present information if its not Publicly available.
and we actually did separate doug and the rock critters from foetodon and arachno claw
i also highly recommend you probably should bookmark this kind of thing.
also
@LindenHS instead of getting confrontational I'm begging you to just say yes and at least attempt and try what they want you to do it would resolve this issue and not prolong it, sometimes its better to just do it even if it seems a bit weird I've learned that myself.
i thought titanus was the code for a group not the individual exactly.
Godzilla's is titanus Gojira yet he is called godzilla. same with mosura
i thought Muto Prime was the name of the individual
No Titanus is a [REDACTED] on the genus so the last part is the actual last part of the scientific name.
Titanus Gojira is the name of Godzilla’s kind, not Titanus Godzilla.
so Jinshin-Mushi is not her name, her name is Muto/Jinshin PRIME.
like Methuselah’s name is actually Archie.
alright that makes sense should we at least try again or mention to him that the opening said that?
On a side note why is Quetzalcoatl combined with the GTAS one? and missing it’s picture? They are definitely not the same character.
Sekhmet is also missing her’s.
still waiting on a full confirmation on Leviathan’s identity though.
it was agreed upon that creatures that are from Mythology/Cryptozoolgy that appear in media we cover should be covered under the same page rather than be separate which includes different interpretations much like the real world Dinosaur pages we have like T-rex
the yeti page for example used to just be about a creature that appeared in kong the animated series but its now expanded to include the yeti that appears in the great yokai war guardians and the yeti from yeti giant of the 20th century.
Orochi features info from yamato takeru and the upcoming brush of the god
and Nessie now includes information from the unmade hammer/toho nessie film
Quetzalcoatl is questionable IMO, but the idea with things like Nessie and Orochi is that the Titans are those legends in-universe.
wait i thought you removed info from nessies page whenever i tried to combine it with leviathan though.
Also If you mean the bird thing that is accurate, the feathered serpents and Quetzalcoatl had legs and wings… they were not snakes, more like therapods. The snake carvings are because rattlesnakes were considered a wind element totem like birds.
we still dunno if MonsterVerse quetz is a winged serpent or bird yet though the carvings for all we know could later be ignored if the design is different.
we do know, Dougherty confirmed his identity
https://mobile.twitter.com/KDM_Monsters/status/1540744120557137920
yeah dude i get that depicts a bird quetzal that might not reflect the finalized design though, we could end up with something different and that could be retconned if Quetzal physical appears.
how can you be so sure though?
it could end up looking wildly different and they could simply disregard that its very much subject to change if it hasnt physically appeared yet as far as we know Mike has no say in the series anymore.
Plus Scylla and Methuselah look nothing like their namesakes
Because that carving is based on something just like the others are, like Behemoth… that’s all I can really say.
Most of the designs are already finalized, only one that wasn’t is Camazotz.
if this is some future insider info we cant feature it because we want to avoid leaks that could get the site in trouble.
Regarding the pictures, IIRC we were going to wait on K-D-M's book to come out so we could cite his interview with Dougherty directly, though that's probably overly cautious. (Does that have an updated release date, by the way?)
Three, first one is out in the fall and they have lots of official interviews.
KDM very much appears to be a trustworthy source but im not sure if the admins agree to use his tweets as a source even.
Oh I mean that the three remaining opening carving titans had their identities confirmed (at least two did) by Dougherty in an interview that will be released later this year.
the three headed creature isn’t Ghidorah and is literally just the biblical Leviathan art with all three heads (Leviathan had three heads but is never drawn with three, but the carving is literally just Leviathan).
Could you pls link these whenever you mention these kinda things it would be really helpful to all of us
and Honestly don't except leviathan to look like that if it ever appears despite what mike says
mainly due to looking too similar to ghidorah plus every description of it is a massive sea serpent.
Leviathan has always had three heads in the older myths.
and has wings…also the carving has four legs.
This stuff was in an interview with Dougherty by KDM. The leviathan part wasn’t, but it’s confirmed none of the carving titans are the big 5 and are all originals.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KDM_Monsters/status/1540744120557137920
Biblical Leviathan never mentioned three heads. Job doesn't mention it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan
unless it was mentioned in other religions or mythology.
It’s said to have 3-7 heads in various myths, read the whole thing there.
typically she has 7.
Also this is the art I’m referring to, the creature shown here minus the extra two heads is a dead ringer for the one in the KOTM carvings.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Destruction_of_Leviathan.png
well Job doesn't really seem to indicate the multiple head thing and seems to indicate its a sea monster but the following chapter appears to have a seven headed beast that appears to have similar features that was described it seems to be assumed that the creature was Leviathan.
but im going off of what wikipedia is saying
but returning to the point i really dont want it to be similar to ghidorah if it ever does appear esp if orochi is a thing it needs to lean more into being like the loch ness monster if it appears.
Leviathan predates Job, look at the original mythology not bible stories.
Except the only similarities between it and Ghidorah are the number of heads.
outside that there is zero in common.
Also Leviathan seems to have a backwards facing head.
i just really want a massive Plesiosaurus eel if its supposed to be Nessie too
we dont have enough plesiosaurus type monsters anyway
if scylla, Amhuluk methuselah look nothing like their namesakes then who knows what else these guys look like
Methuselah is the Ark or the Mountain it landed on, he is named after Noah’s grandfather. Not sure why. He also can alter how he looks.
Amhuluk can shapeshift. He actually does look like a myth from that region about a carnivorous stump called Little Otik (I probably misspelled that?).
you know that actually makes sense why he is called Methuselah now.
also the Amhuluk that im aware of was described as a furry dragon with something tied to his tail
I mean it is an eel-like plesiosaur thing, just has more heads… and bird legs.
Just be aware there are more titans then the ones we know… in total there are probably 30ish… you can see most in KOTM in one scene. Two locations shown in that scene are filming locations in G&K, and a third is where Barb came from.
one of my old theories that people said I was wrong on I wasn’t wrong about… so a straight up plesiosaur Titan is still possible
i know Morocco is one so Baphomet might appear but i dont know the other location thats being filmed at that could be an outpost.
Mount Glacier in Canada.
Rome, Italy.
not inside information, it’s public knowledge. Also the specific scene is a map in KOTM shown on the Argo. There are THREE named outposts (Israel, Na-Kika, and one in Mexico near Rodan) and several “activity alerts” over various locations, three of which are confirmed locations now. (Hoboken, Rome, and Mount Glacier)
if this is supposedly insider information or leaks pls dont post them here we really don't want to get in potential trouble
i don't mean to be a snitch but @Les how do you feel about this https://mobile.twitter.com/KDM_Monsters/status/1634691323138654216?cxt=HHwWkIC-kZ7Gy68tAAAA
The issue with public forums… people see them.
if you want to shit talk someone publicly then you don’t get to co about them responding.
and before you ask, no.
dragging this to twitter was not helpful and its just hurting the reputation of the site and is really petty
I didn’t.
he saw it and asked me about it… that’s all.
That’s why I have that last bit on that last comment I made “before you ask, no”
but KDM is right, you should not shit talk people in general…
