User talk:Astounding Beyond Belief

Astounding Beyond Belief

Previous discussion was archived at User talk:Astounding Beyond Belief/Archive 1 on 2019-04-29.

Hi there! I've been lurking on the wiki for years and I love what you guys do, you helped me get more knowledgeable on various monsters and I'll love to help contribute wherever I can. That being said, is it possible for me to change the heights for both Evolved Godzilla and Shimo please? I have the screenshots for my explanations why I think these changes need to be implemented.

According to Spiral Studios in 2024, the new official height for Evolved Godzilla is now 129.8 meters tall (weight is still unknown). Spiral Studio said to a user on Facebook asking about details surrounding EvoGodzilla stated “it was not uncommon for their marketing campaigns to release non-updated information… as they would normally receive only the first version of style guide to work around the campaigns/CI... the very same thing also happened to licensees who got their hands on the rights before anyone else" as a explanation as to why Legendary never bothered correcting their merchandise for TNE. Since Spiral Studios does have data from both Legendary and Toho, this makes sense from their end.

Shimo on the other hand is a bit tricky to determine her size, the recently published Monarch Files in 2026 had her standing at 162.45 meters, however it contradicts the bipedal stance by saying that Shimo “is a quadrupled titan of immense size, dwarfing even Godzilla" (pg 140), while ignoring the outdated concept art size. So either we stick with the outdated 114 meter height while having further complications considering the quote above, or we take the quote into serious consideration. I wouldn't consider 114 meters to be "dwarfing Godzilla" and the fact that every other titan was given a "standing height" even for the one who are either quadrupled (Methuselah, Amhuluk) or physically incapable of standing upright (Na Kika, Abaddon, Tiamat) proves that Legendary didn't put much thought into it when saying "standing height". As seen onscreen, Shimo never reared up fully onto her hind legs and everything I've read (e.g the novel) or seen on Shimo (Spiral Studios, Monarch Files) has always depicted her as a gigantic kaiju dwarfing Godzilla. Some past leaks had made Shimo smaller (which lined up with the 114 meter size, which could have been the original plan for Shimo, but that has clearly changed with how they mention her now.

Hope to hear from you soon.

I certainly found it odd that Godzilla's evolution didn't make him any taller. But do you happen to know what post those comments were made on? If we're going to update a Godzilla's height stat, the original source would be highly preferred as a citation. I couldn't find the comment thread in question on the Spiral Studios Facebook page. I did see a private Spiral Studios Official Community as well, so I've requested to join it.

I'm inclined to agree with your conclusions about Shimo. The size chart her 375-foot quadrupedal height comes from obviously isn't final because Phosphera is in it; it also lowballs the Skar King's height compared with later sources (300 vs. 318 feet). And looking at the shot where she pushes Godzilla backwards in Rio (1:39:14), one of her back crystals definitely seems substantially taller than him.

I also requested to join the private Spiral Studios Official Community on Facebook, but haven't gotten accepted yet. However I feel like its safe to assume they still exist but are archived somewhere.

I'll def update Shimo's stats in the meantime tho.

Information relayed on social media disappearing has caused us a fair few headaches, so I don't take the continued existence of those sources for granted, no. And having the original source helps prove that the screenshots weren't forged/the comments weren't retracted, for instance.

I finished Shimo's update but I feel like it could be written better since Im not experience editing on wikizilla, I'll leave it up to you. Also I added the monarch files page on Shimo on imgur but im not sure if that is ok or not.

• It's a photo but i'll get the actual scan when I can

Is there any reason why you reversed the edits I made?

It was easier for me to start from scratch.

I just saw the edit you made, but im wondering why its worded in a vague way (specifically regarding the quadrupled vs bipedal thing even though on the Files page it specifically said "quadrupled". I feel like people will still get mixed up if there are words like "unclear", "may imply" or "theoretical" involved in the note. Wouldn't it be better if it was more direct?

I don't really think it's as clear as you're making it out to be. "Standing height" does not tell you what stance it's referring to and "a quadrupedal Titan of immense size" doesn't have to be talking about height; it could just as easily be her length. After all, this book has a very loose application of "size", using that word vaguely to report various superspecies' heights, lengths, or even wingspans.

And don't forget the GxK size chart which, whether or not you consider it authoritative, explicitly measures Shimo quadrupedally and still has her taller than Godzilla. So even if you interpret the 533 feet as bipedal, the statement that she "dwarf[s] Godzilla" quadrupedally would still be true; that passage does not actually do anything to disambiguate.

The point of a wiki is not to assert its authors' viewpoints, but to report what sources say. In a situation as unclear as this, I think the approach I took is the best there is.

Ok, thanks for the explanation. In the meantime, could I go update Evolved Godzilla's height as well since we have that screenshot? Or at least mention it.

I recommend reading ABB's last message above and my first one after GojiraBoy below. The source should be found to prove it's even real, but I don't support it replacing the 393 ft number regardless. It should just go in a note.

OMG I FOUND IT, ITS STILL HERE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1295939397690191/permalink/1428226504461479/

IT STILL EXISTS!!!!

Date: August 6, 2024 at 10:10am PST

💢

Exists, but inaccessible at first.

you'll need a facebook account.... and ikd why it got removed.

EDIT: Even if you dont count it, its still from someone who has the official license. Spiral Studio's statement has been gaining trackion for over two years, even if you down want it in the bio it should still be mentioned

Ok, then I'm assuming you will re-edit the page with the monarch files stuff? Also reason why I shifted Na Kika's height was due to how the Monarch Declassified specifically saying body length (we dont have her full length with the tentacles)

A very compelling argument that I must agree with without hesitation.

I don't have much opinion about Shimo. If it's gonna be a contentious thing, listing the size from our most recent source (The Monarch Files) with a note about the others seems fine. For Godzilla, though, I think I actively oppose the change. Spiral may have been given 129.8 meters as a point of reference for their figure, but the fact that no other source reflects this number makes me believe it is not canon. Not only did GxK's marketing consistently give his height as 393 ft/120 m ( ) but so does his profile in The Monarch Files, which covers his history up through GxK and pictures him in Evolved form. If it wasn't someone fucking up somewhere, my guess would be that the Evolved model was physically larger and when measuring it at scale it would be 129.8 meters, but that's not actually true of in-universe. Just like how the GKotM Godzilla's tail is visually nubbier than in G14 but canonically its length is longer, or how Godzilla and Kong were scaled up for GvK in Hong Kong to make them look more impressive. We have no obligation to sniff out what is the most "reasonable" number; we should remain faithful to what the preponderance of sources tell us.

With all due respect, Godzilla's limbs have lengthened, the burning of fat has stretched his torso and legs, and Godzilla's casual posture point to a larger monster. The pre-visualization shots showcasing Godzilla alongside Kong remain one of my two strongest arguments that Godzilla stands true to the 129.8-meter height. The shot of Godzilla and the other three titans leaping at each other also supports the height increase given how Godzilla seems to contend with Kong in terms of height WHILST hunched over or leaning forward.

I feel like this response could only have been made by someone who didn't read anything I wrote.

What we see with our eyes onscreen and what's written in the books as "official" numbers are two different things, and making them play nice is not our job.

In GojiraBoy's defense, there are several other kaijus who's sizes did not match with what was portrayed on screen vs what the guidebooks/other media stated (looking at you Showa King Ghidorah as a example). Kaiju movies are notorious for not keeping their sizes consistant onscreen and I personally think its not really the best way to determine the size of kaiju onscreen when we have other information that gives that answer more directly.

I am currently working on some pages for the Justice League vs. Godzilla vs. Kong 2 comic series and i was wondering if i am allowed to make a page for it, and also for the Titanized versions of some characters that only appears on this comic book series

The Titanized DC characters are fine, but turning into a dragon is actually something Martian Manhunter can just do normally.

OK thank you

On shimos page i was actually gonna originally put it in the exact spot that you put it in few hours/a day ago but i wasn't too sure if it would really work.

Well, I won't pretend Legendary makes this stuff easy.

yeah, I wasn't too sure on where I would write out her nature description, so I thought I could just write it out as a separate thing, thanks.

Hey ABB, are you able to see the Kai-Killer X sandbox and tell me if its ready to turn into a real page?

I’ve been thinking, do you guys have plans on doing a Kaiju profile on the Millennium incarnation of the King of the Monsters, or are you still currently in the development phase?

WHICH “Millennium” incarnation………?

🤨

2000

You mean “Godzilla vs. Megaguirus” Godzilla…?

🤨………….

No, the one from 2000 Millennium

so the Godzilla from 1999

Yes

Alright. Just wanted to make certain.

🔍( 👁️‍🗨️ _<)🤜🏻

Any idea on when the Kaiju profile for the 1999 incarnation will come out?

We aren't really able to work on the videos consistently. They get done when they get done.

Is that a no?

Pretty much any monster with a page on this site could potentially be profiled, but the profile for G2K hasn't been started yet, no.

What happened to the one wikizilla YouTube video, showing the dates and months on which Kaiju would get their Kaiju profile? Why was that taken down?

I mean, why do you think?

I can’t find it in the wikizilla YouTube channel when I keep scrolling down to find it

He means that it was deleted because it was pointless to keep. Futile.

What?!

uhh the channel is still on yt

I mean the video showing the schedule of month and year on which Kaiju will get their Kaiju profile

That video's so old I forgot it existed. What on earth would be the point in leaving it up?

Keeping eye out for upcoming Kaiju profiles?

Cuz people would prob see it with nostalgia?

While I would support that sentiment, it isn’t exactly like Wikizilla to be sentimental.

Yeah.... Wikizilla as it seems it as a neutral ambiance

are you referring to my answer?

No, mine regarding the nostalgia

Oh

Toho recently announced a collaboration between the two franchises! https://x.com/oricon_anime_/status/2067533043020206144?s=46&t=zaSat5wR1Sd68BlvTNUWMw

oh my goodness

Isn’t this cool?!

Film does not qualify and has been deleted.

Hey, I dunno if this is the right place for this (I don't know how to use the discussions ;w;), but I think Crocodile isn't an unreasonable entry for this wiki. Its a giant monster movie with special effects lead by Sompote Sands and Kazuo Sagawa, both former Toho special effects staff members. The influence from Godzilla is undeniable in my opinion. It doesn't seem too far fetched compared to things like Yongary ('67) and Pulgasari, both of which were also Asian monster movies influenced by Godzilla with Japanese effects staffs, but its agree to disagree.

We have more specific criteria than that; please read the rules in the page I linked.

Tagging Deathgilas to join this conversation in case they don't see the talk page.

We can't keep the page in limbo forever. I'll give y'all until Friday (one week from the sandbox's creation) to make a case for it before I delete it.

"A reptilian animal is irradiated by the arrogance of man via nuclear testing and grows to giant size. After a storm, said animal appears, in which it attacks parts of the country. A group of people go out to sea to stop it, and in which one of the people sacrifices themselves to kill it." Both of these plot synopsis can refer to the plot to either Godzilla (1954) or Crocodile. Not only that, but the 2 directors of special effects (Sompote Sands and Kazuo Sagawa), even if they weren't the special effects director, still worked on the production of King Kong vs. Godzilla. I feel both these should at least make it possible for Crocodile to be relevant to Wikizilla.

Loosening the scope rules to encompass minor staff members is a nonstarter, but this is sufficiently intriguing to look into further. From synopses online, it does sound like it owes much more to Jaws though.

Finally gave it a watch—I'm afraid it doesn't clear the "significant influence" bar. The monster's nuclear origin is only mentioned in passing and has no real bearing on the plot, it never attacks a city or engages the military, and the sacrifice to kill it doesn't even happen in the original version of the film. It is plainly, however, a Jaws knockoff. The staff connections are, for our purposes, irrelevant.

Giving another week-long grace period before it's deleted so y'all can preserve your work. It will be deleted on June 9.

Understood. While we're on the topic of new pages, would any of these films be within scope?

- Young Flying Hero (1970) - The Founding of Ming Dynasty (1971) - Who Killed The Frog (1982, lost) - King of Snake (1984? 1987?)

All feature giant monster(s) attacking cities (I suppose in 1 and 2s case, palaces) and I believe some have special effects work done by Japanese crew. Just want to check with you that these pages would remain before I get to working on anything.

"Who Killed the Frog" is not lost, just exceptionally rare and *probably* not available online.

I don't know if it qualifies, but IMO it makes sense to wait until it turns up.

Who specifically worked on them? To qualify they need to "share a director, special effects director, screenwriter, or suitmaker with the Godzilla or Gamera series." I know King of Snake doesn't qualify, because its sandbox got deleted when we adopted the scope.

And to clarify, "sharing" one of those staff means two movies have the same person working in the same position. E.g., Toho intern Sompote Sands directing Crocodile's special effects ❌, Godzilla-series SFX director Teruyoshi Nakano doing the effects for Daiei's Tokyo Blackout ✅.

I know The Founding of Ming Dynasty was done by Koichi Takano, who never did a Godzilla movie. King of Snake was Kazuo Sagawa, who also has only tenuous relation. All of them could probably only qualify by influence, which seems unlikely.

If you're looking for a project to tackle, I would recommend one of the dozens of red links that are already on Wikizilla:Scope.

If it brings any comfort, THIS “crocodile” fares for qualification to an extent that a distinct film of the same name will NEVER reach.

I'm not sure why it would. A film either qualifies here or it doesn't.

Fast forward to 2060:

The Earth is recovering from its latest and most damaging mass extinction. The Internet survived, but the people around to use it face a tremendous decline in intellectual capabilities and sophistication. Wikizilla survived, but the people are completely replaced by a generation that can’t fathom the past regulations and standards for a Wikipedia.

Alright

I need assistance in knowing how and where is the best place to admin and add to the following comment.

Sydney Perkins claim through list of Godzilla bootlegs view history page on 11 January 2025:

the anglo fandom's continuing designation of these old releases of godzilla vs. megalon as "unauthorized" or "bootlegs" stems from a misunderstanding of the history of copyright. prior to the 1996 U.S. copyright restoration of films in copyright in their home countries, godzilla vs. megalon (a pre-1989 release with no copyright notice on the film) was legitimately in the PD in the US, and all of these VHS distributors were fully within their rights to proliferate it.

I have researched information that clears up some of Sydney’s statement that is not fully accurate.

I would like to offer this as an addendum to what Sidney has stated above. Godzilla vs. Megalon was originally copyrighted in Japan in 1973. It entered the U.S. public domain due to missing a copyright notice on U.S. release.  Budget VHS releases occurred during 1980’s through the 1990’s. They were considered legal at the time due to the English language print not containing a Copyright notice. Many budget home-video companies legally released the films on VHS during this time. (they were not bootlegs at this time) This changed January 1, 1996, when the U.S. implemented the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA) of 1994. This restored U.S. copyright to foreign works that were still protected in their home countries but had fallen into the U.S. public domain solely because of missing formalities such as a missing copyright notice. This allowed Godzilla vs. Megalon to have its copyright fully restored. After this occurred, all unlicensed VHS, DVD, and digital releases-regardless of when the master tapes were created-became unauthorized.

While the earlier VHS releases were legal at the time they were produced, they are no longer lawful to reproduce or distribute today. They were not ever bootlegs. They technically are “unauthorized,” because the U.S. law corrected a mistake that was made.

Furthermore:  The character “Godzilla” is a heavily protected trademark owned by TOHO. So, even during the 1980’s, budget companies needed to be very careful how they marketed the “Godzilla,” name to avoid trademark infringement.

Your assistance would be appreciated.

Sydney is also a staff member, so I'm not sure why you came to me with this. Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the List of Godzilla bootlegs page should either be severely shortened or deleted entirely, since there are currently no limits on what could be put there and our standards for what unofficial content we cover are otherwise very strict. I could theoretically make a whole section for the Half Human DVD-R I bought at a toy show a decade ago.

Should we merge contents about Dr. Slump into the Dragon Ball page and rename it? This is because the two series have had crossovers (and intended to share the universe both in the manga and the anime), and Dr. Slump has introduced more references and parodies to kaiju and tokusatsu than in Dragon Ball. The page already contains info that have also appeared in Dr. Slump (such as Gamera and Wonder Island).

I have thought about it being called something like "Akira Toriyama works" in the past before

Thanks! I'm totally fine with your idea.

That with Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump redirects sounds fine.

Thanks!

I see

File:8123.jpeg

You really want to know? I must remind you that everything I do evokes you and/or Les with disagreement and annoyance.

Why would I need to be reminded of that? Just say your piece.

You can tell by how unfocused and flame-like the atomic breath blast appeared that it wasn’t a relatively concentrated, powerful blast. It more so resembles the blasts with the female MUTO than occasions where it was laser-like, straight, evidently more powerful. The more quality fuel you give a flame, the more it assumes a blue, funnel-like appearance as opposed to an orange, fluid blade-like appearance.

Monsterverse Godzilla doesn’t ever do things without necessity, including killing others or harming them. It is important to keep in mind that pain and psychological harm has the same effect on the body as physical, more conventionally-recognized damage. A blast of atomic breath can be too much to take even if the damage is not severe. It would stand to reason that Godzilla torched the Ion Dragon to knock the majority of the fight in it rather than to kill it or almost kill it. We all know that even a relatively weak hit can do so much harm. For like 3-5 seconds, an injury can be seen on the Ion Dragon's shoulder area, the same spot where Godzilla tore it apart. The Ion Dragon is visibly on the smaller side as far as Titans go, so obviously the injury was enough to leave the forelimb susceptible to being torn off, especially by someone as strong as Godzilla. Godzilla's objective was to defeat the Ion Dragon since it obviously posed a threat to the nearby humans and needed to be dealt with, but he didn’t have to leave it dead. He just needed to subdue it enough for him to dispose of it, which we all know he did. Accidents happen, so it would make sense that Godzilla underestimated the extent of the damage he inflicted to the Ion Dragon's forelimb. To be fair, mutilation is admittedly far from a source of moral discomfort, so of course Godzilla didn’t show signs of shock or remorse for tearing off the arm. His objective was met and he got rid of the dragon without outright killing it. Logically, this whole thing would support the matter of the on-subject atomic breath use being a “subtle” one. The less formidable they are, the less it takes to do them harm.

Long story short: The appearance can tell you a lot about the usage, the power invested into it, the effort, the purpose, etc. You need keen eyes and an analytical mind.

And about it being accidental, Godzilla isn’t so ruthless that he goes over the top with the violence and destruction that he does intentionally go through with. Mercy is a natural choice for him. Necessity is important no matter what. Not every conflict ends with death, which is the case most of the time in nature. Only a “subtle” amount of force is needed.

So... Godzilla wasn't trying to kill the female MUTO? We also know, thanks to Adam Wingard, that the atomic breath Godzilla fires to meet Mechagodzilla's Proton Scream wasn't full power, yet it was visually the same as his other rays throughout the film. With that in mind, the form the atomic breath took against the Ion Dragon doesn't seem significant. I suspect that the VFX team simply made it more flamelike as a callback to the 2014 film (but you will notice I am not presenting that theory in the article as fact).

The strict moral code you’re attributing to Godzilla is also dubious. If he was really so careful in his use of force, it beggars belief that he would have no reaction to accidentally ripping off another Titan’s wing. That’s not exactly a flesh wound! And while many of his actions are clearly justified in-story, he’s also destroyed harmless jets and ships, sliced Tiamat into pieces after breaking into her house, and repeatedly dropped everything he was doing to try and kill Kong. He’s spared some opponents when they backed down, but the Ion Dragon fought until the end.

Welp. We both said our pieces.

While I appreciate your level of thought, and your use of outside knowledge to inform your reading of the fight scene, as an encyclopedic website, however fair/accurate our interpretation may be, we must always be mindful of artistic intent. While I do see that your understanding of the mechanics of fire was used to judge the intensity of a blast, and how from that you were able to extrapolate an interpretation of Godzilla's intent, it is still just an interpretation.

While that interpretation can be valid to you, or others, or anyone, it is the duty of a site like this to state verifiable fact. I suppose what that means is that unless you have a specific source from the creative team saying that they use his blasts to demonstrate intention, or that the use of one beam design over another is something they put a lot of thought into, or even circumstantial evidence like the different beams being used similarly in other episodes/MV projects, the idea that he is using a less powerful attack, and that that must mean he did not intend a lethal strike, is just an interpretation and not a hard fact. To use fandom terms it boils down to a headcanon. Not an unreasonable headcanon, certainly not an uninformed headcanon, but headcanon nonetheless. As such, we cannot list it as fact in the article.

I am not here to talk down to or discourage you, but I want you to understand why the team often takes issue with your edits. I know it can feel frustrating to see your work discarded, and it not a personal issue, it is a policy issue. We have to have facts in our articles, and what you have added does not match our research-oriented definition of fact.

Does that make sense to you?

I understand perfectly. It feels good reading this. I’m still gonna try my best to avoid expunging what amounts to head-canon. It’s difficult, but I won’t stop trying.